Transcript:

Vladimir Putin: Good afternoon. I've had an opportunity to see the work you are doing. First, I would like to thank you, and at the same time congratulate you on having this opportunity. I believe that many people in our country will be envious when they see the kind of work you have been doing here. Unfortunately, far from everyone in Russia is aware of our country’s history, and I believe that you are performing a very important function, you are uncovering a new page revealing the deep cultural roots of the territory that we are living in today.

Mr Kuznetsov (Vladimir Kuznetsov, head of the expedition) and I spoke during a video conference last year, so I know a little about your work and the materials you are working with. To be sure, the 6^th century B.C.E. – this is difficult to imagine. This is the oldest settlement in the whole territory of Russia. The fact that you are making this knowledge available to everyone, to the Russian people and to the rest of the world, is fantastic. I would like to thank you for doing this, and congratulate you once again on this opportunity. You are all from different schools, correct?

Remark: That's right.

Vladimir Putin: From which territories?

Answer: Kuban, Krasnodar, Voronezh, Magnitogorsk, Moscow…

Vladimir Putin: From all over Russia, practically.

Remark: We had a lot of people here from St Petersburg some time ago.

Vladimir Putin: Are they historians? What do they study, are they from different departments or mostly..?

Answer: Historians, mostly.

Vladimir Putin: Tell me about your work. How are you finding it, what are your impressions?

Answer: We enjoy working here, the work is interesting and the conditions are good. Really, it’s great being here. We are artists, and we make drawings of everything we find. It's great practice.

Vladimir Putin: At what school do you study?

Answer: The Stroganov school.

Vladimir Putin: The Stoganov art school. Are you from Moscow?

Answer: Yes.

Vladimir Putin: And where are the historians and the archaeologists?

Answer: We are all historians here… Every time you dig with a shovel, you come across archaeology – coins or some kind of artefact – and in your mind, you begin to reconstruct those events: about the development of the Taman Peninsula, about how these tribes got together. You can’t help thinking about it. This is a living science, where we strive to learn historical facts using our small homeland as our object of study. This is very important.

Secondly, we have focused people on our team that strive for further development. All social roles and differences between faculty and students disappear. Here everyone is equal, and we all work on the same terms.

Vladimir Putin: They will get back at you for forgetting these differences during the next examination.

Remark: By the way, this guy is a local. He was born here in the village of Sennoy. Now he is a student at Kuban University and is really devoted to his small homeland.

Vladimir Putin: Mr Kuznetsov suggested building a historical and cultural reserve here, so that people from all over Russia could come and learn about this place. But initially, the Academy of Sciences and the Krasnodar Territory authorities proposed turning this facility into a branch of the Krasnodar facility – the historical and cultural reserve. Still, Mr Kuznetsov believes that it should be a federal facility.

Vladimir Kuznetsov: I can explain. I believe that this will be beneficial for the Kuban region in the first place, because having the status of a federal museum will improve the status of entire Kuban and this locality in particular. The locality has a rich history, and I believe that it should be a national facility. This is why I think that we should build a museum here that has federal status.

Vladimir Putin: Perhaps we should devise some kind of joint institution, so that the Krasnodar Territory would also be a part of it? Not only because the financing would be shared. When the territory participates, there’s more interest.

Remark: If we can get the infrastructure and access roads in order...

Vladimir Putin: The institution itself would be a federal one.

Remark: This belongs to all of Russia, not just this territory. We agree.

Vladimir Putin: Good.

Remark: I think that’s the right thing to do because we can’t achieve it without the territorial administration’s help.

Vladimir Putin: But what if the artefacts are damaged because we get too many visitors?

Answer: Not if everything is properly organised. There will be no problems with tourists if the tours are organised in line with regulations: they first visit the excavations and then go to the museum, as they do in Europe. I don’t think that can lead to any problems. On the contrary, such tours can be very useful, mainly for educational purposes. Tourism will also promote the development of this vast territory, which needs improvement.

Remark: Mr Putin, this is very important for us. We will get a regular flow of tourists when we establish the centre with a museum. The local people and the regional economy will benefit. We have many examples… We saw together earlier that there was a wine cult here even in antiquity – in fact, earlier than in France. So we are doing the right thing with your help to revive the land.

Remark: When a major ancient site is explored, it’s vitally important to open a large museum near the excavation site. That is how things are usually done in Europe. In Greece, for instance, when foreign teams work on excavations, the local authorities make it a point that archaeologists open a museum on the site. All finds are submitted to the museum, and tourists first make a round of the excavations and then go on to the museum to see the finds.

It is also important to set up a trade infrastructure with souvenirs, research literature and popular science books, which will do a great deal to educate the public – just think how many vacationers there are out here. There are about three million in Anapa and the surrounding area, if I am not mistaken, and over a million in the Temryuk District. So I think it’s very important.

Vladimir Putin: You mentioned Greece and other parts of the world of special archaeological interest. You may remember my talk with your colleagues in Novgorod last year. They said that Russia should ratify the Valletta Convention on the Protection of the Archaeological Heritage of Europe. If we join it, Russian experts will have greater opportunities of working abroad. Russia ratified it in June.

Remark: That’s very good.

Vladimir Putin: It’s a 1992 convention.

Question: I would like to ask a question regarding a related issue: the change of status for this territory. You see, there used to be a state farm here and now a part of this archaeological site belongs to a shareholding company. It owns the plot, which is a national treasure. As I see it, it would be justified to expropriate the land.

Vladimir Putin: But then, it’s quite a small site. What’s the area?

Answer: It’s very small, around 40 hectares.

Vladimir Putin: (toTkachev, the Krasnodar Territory governor) Let’s think about it, Mr Tkachev. Let’s do it together. I doubt that the present owners have invested heavily in this land but if they have, they should get compensation, and the plot should be expropriated for state purposes. This is not a large plot, they won’t make considerable profits if they build homes there. We could assign them another land plot in the vicinity by way of compensation. Have a look at what we can do to avoid damaging their interests. That could be compensation in money or land. Perhaps they don’t need money. Then you might assign them a plot nearby where there are no excavations – and that will be that.

Remark: If it were a profitable crop area, the holders would certainly be entitled to a compensation for the land and production costs, but if it’s wasteland, its price is quite different.

Vladimir Putin: But we should not encroach on anyone’s interests.

Answer: Good.

Vladimir Putin: The next step will be to establish a historical, cultural and architectural reserve here.

Question: Mr Putin, I have another very important question to ask you, if you don’t mind.

Vladimir Putin: I see a centre was being built here, funded by… Mr Deripaska, is your company funding the research centre here?

Oleg Deripaska (RUSAL CEO): Yes, together with Mr Nikolayev (Konstantin Nikolayev, N-Trans Group CEO).

Vladimir Putin: Public-private partnership would work well in this instance. We can allocate some funds because the money you are donating is not sufficient to implement the project. The state will add a token sum so that all goals are met. Then the grounds will be laid for a major research centre and a museum.

Remark: A museum is essential. Otherwise, the complex will be incomplete.

Vladimir Putin: Does the project envisage accommodation?

Answer: Yes, housing for researchers, and all laboratory facilities. Students will stay in summer houses with all conveniences. It’s a very good plan.

Vladimir Putin: This will take the work to a new level, won’t it?

Answer: Quite a different level, of course. I think it will be Russia’s first full-fledged centre of this kind, if we build it.

Vladimir Putin: What did you mean to ask me?

Answer: It’s a matter of general concern, extremely relevant for archaeology. The permits for archaeological excavations and surveys are issued by the Ministry of Culture, and I would like to say that their issuance should be regulated.

Vladimir Putin: It boils down to licensing archaeological work?

Answer: Not quite licensing, just research permits. It would be reasonable for the Academy of Sciences to make the expertise of permit applications and excavation reports, which are mandatory after the works are over – they are the main criterion of the job done. If the Academy does not take part, there is a danger that people who have nothing to do with archaeology can obtain such permits. That will be detrimental to our historical heritage.

Vladimir Putin: These excavation permits are not issued to institutions or organisations but to individual researchers, so unqualified people will hardly ever obtain them. The whole problem lies elsewhere. The excavation works are mostly organised by construction companies, which can submit their own scholars. The Federal Service for Monitoring Compliance with Cultural Heritage Protection Law used to issue such permits. Now it’s up to the Ministry of Culture because it is an executive body, which alone can issue the permits.

But I agree with your point: what we need is a “two key” approach. Agencies of the Academy of Sciences and the Ministry of Culture should not have the right to issue permits bypassing relevant expertise. This must be an inviolable rule. Reports on the job done are also necessary, or the whole process can become unprofessional.

Remark: The expertise could be fake, too.

Vladimir Putin: Right. I’ll see what’s going on there, and we will guarantee that the Ministry of Culture does not issue such permits bypassing the expertise and authorisation of the Academy.

Remark: That would be great. It’s very important.

Remark: Good afternoon. My name is Alexei Zavykin. I am a senior researcher at the Institute of Archaeology of the Academy of Sciences. Mr Putin, as far as I can judge…

Vladimir Putin: You got a personnel increase last year, didn’t you? The institute has four more employees now, right?

Alexei Zavykin: Yes, but I want to raise another issue. As far as I can judge, there is a new trend for major cuts in federal grants for humanities issued through the Russian Humanitarian Research Foundation. I am not going to speak about humanitarian research nationwide and in the Moscow Region, where I work and which I know. As I see the problem, it endangers field studies and expeditions. There are also problems with publishing research written as a result of such studies.

Could you please tell us whether this is a trend or a chance fluctuation of cash flows? Can we hope that it won’t be permanent? Otherwise, research will not develop – at best, we will preserve the level at which we are now. Thank you.

Vladimir Putin: The explanation is quite simple. We have sizeable social expenditures. We increased them in the previous years due to growing social benefits, pensions, wages, etc. They are still small in some sectors but they are being raised continuously, so budget expenditures grow.

The global financial and economic downturn forced us to redistribute certain expenditures. We cannot cut social expenditures – benefits, pensions and salaries. In fact, we had to increase them slightly due to unemployment and some other factors.

We have a slight budget deficit even now. It was close to 4% last year, and we expect 1.5-1% or slightly less this year. However small, a deficit is a deficit, and we will have to finance it either from our reserves or from loans, which is not the best option because debts must be paid off. So we have to reduce certain expenditures. I think that’s the main reason. However, when the Finance Ministry tells other ministries and agencies to cut their expenditures, they make the decision what to cut and by how much independently.

I haven’t the slightest doubt that we will regain the pre-crisis level by the end of this year or the middle of next year, and come close to a balanced budget. The Finance Ministry forecasts a budget deficit for another several years, proceeding from objective factors. However, I have every reason to think that we will put an end to it sooner and increase funding. This is a passing problem.

Alexei Zavykin: Thank you. That’s just what I wanted to hear – that it isn’t a state policy.

Vladimir Putin: No, it isn’t.

Alexei Zavykin: Humanities are essential for any nation – at any rate, it cannot count on sustainable development without them.

Vladimir Putin: Not that our nation will no longer develop – we will just lose the awareness of our national identity, so development will be harder – slower, and with vague realisation of what’s going on. We will not see what to do next, either. This is a critical part of research and in humanities, so we will fund research. That’s beyond doubt.

Alexei Zavykin: Thank you.

Question: Did you mention the four new people on our regular staff list?

Vladimir Putin: Yes, I did.

Remark: Here is one of them, Alexei Voroshilov. 

Vladimir Putin: I see two working here.

Remark: I’m the other one.

Remark: Alexei works at the necropolis, and Sergei underwater.

Vladimir Putin: They also asked me in Novgorod last year for several new workplaces.

Answer: The results are here for all to see.

Vladimir Putin: Excellent.

Remark: I worked here as a student, and now I’m a full-time researcher.

Vladimir Putin: Congratulations. So you have changed your academic status?

Answer: It was a sizeable promotion. I feel more positive now.

Remark: I first came here for excavations as an undergraduate, in 2001.

Vladimir Putin: Scuba diving like now?

Answer: No, just diving.

Vladimir Putin: You specialise in underwater archaeology now?

Answer: Yes, since 2005.

Remark: He trains in Europe and has studied at many diving schools – that’s special archaeology training.

Remark: Mr Putin, can I ask you a question?

Vladimir Putin: Please do.

Question: Is there any hope for Russia to ratify the UNESCO Convention on the Protection of Underwater Cultural Heritage for such monuments to have relevant legal protection?

Vladimir Putin: This is about the protection of underwater monuments, right?

Answer: Yes, the protection and management of the underwater cultural heritage.

Vladimir Putin: I have no idea why we have not joined it to this day. I think we’d long have ratified it if only the Academy of Sciences had proposed it. After all, it’s up to the experts to call our attention to what they deem the most important and valuable. I don’t think it will cost too much to ratify the convention. You know, we have not yet joined certain international institutions merely for economy sake – our budget can’t afford it. But there are fewer and fewer such institutions. In fact, we have joined all the pivotal ones. But it is up to experts like you to promote these conventions.

As I mentioned, we met in Novgorod last year, and I was told that we should join the Valletta Convention – and we did it last June. Let’s do the same for underwater heritage. Why not?

Remark: We have contacted the Ministry of Culture several times, but have yet to receive a reply.

Vladimir Putin: I don’t know anything about it. I am hearing about it for the first time now. I promise that we will consider this matter.

Answer: Thank you very much.

Vladimir Putin: You meant to ask me a question?

Question: Mr Putin, I’m a local from the Kuban area, and I have never been here before, though I have heard about it. Now, I am in love with archaeology, and I dare ask you what’s your impression of it, and what do you like most?

Vladimir Putin: I like the way you work. I really mean it. It’s all so neat and precise – a true labour of love. I think that matters most.

I know about your predecessors’ work from the Hermitage collections, and I fully realise their value – not monetary but cultural. I want to reiterate that this work and its finds show how deep our nation’s cultural roots reach. Look, Greeks lived here. Khazars came next. Adygs and Circassians appeared later on the borders of this land, and then it was conquered by Turkey. Then Russia incorporated it. But peoples did not just come and go – each left traces of its culture, and a culture’s soul is realised in the artefacts you find. It is always present in traditions. Western European nations inherited the culture of the Roman Empire. There was no such succession in the East but we can see one here. When Russia regains an area, in a way it leaves an imprint in the national consciousness, even if we aren’t always aware of it. This imprint passes from generation to generation, and your work opens our eyes to the deep sources of our present-day culture. It does matter. So I like everything about it. Besides, archaeology is very interesting on its own.

Question: Have you ever taken part in an archaeological expedition?

Vladimir Putin: No, I just visited several sites in the Leningrad Region and in Novgorod, and now I am here with you.

Question: What if you take a fortnight’s leave to work here with us?

Vladimir Putin: Thank you very much for the invitation. I’d really love it.

Question: Though the law on the protection of cultural heritage of the Russian peoples was endorsed back in 2002, archaeological monuments are destroyed apace by industry and ransacked by poachers. I think the problem can be solved either at the federal level, by toughening the law, or at the municipal level. For that, the responsibility for the preservation of Russia’s cultural heritage should be shifted to municipal authorities. What should be done, do you think? And how can we preserve our cultural heritage?

Vladimir Putin: You mean archaeological poaching?

Answer: Yes, and the construction of roads and industrial plants on archaeological sites.

Vladimir Putin: It all needs more accurate regulation, mainly at the federal level because many infrastructure projects are not a municipal or even regional responsibility. More than that, local cities cannot always afford this. In addition, things like what we have here are of national value. True, some items of cultural heritage are at the municipal or regional level, while some are of national purport, so they all should be classified. All the same, we should proceed from federal regulation in any case, and the experts must advise us. That is all rather complicated.

We all just walked around the excavation site here. You cannot say at this point in what century all those underground passages were dug. This is a very sophisticated problem, but it must be addressed. Again, Russia joined the Valletta Convention, an international European instrument that says explicitly enough what nations should do to protect their architectural and cultural heritage.

Know what I’ll do? I’ll instruct the Ministry of Culture to get back to heritage protection on the basis of that convention. Incidentally, the instruction is ready, on the whole. The ministry and law enforcement agencies will be ordered to offer proposals by September 1. We will come back to this then and, based on the available proposals, and with the experts, plan what else should be done for the greatest possible safety of our cultural and historical archaeological heritage.

Question: Mr Putin, I have a related question. It concerns contests for government-funded archaeological excavations, in which the Academy of Sciences and other serious academic organisations had to compete with suspicious companies.

Vladimir Putin: Yes. That’s in compliance with the notorious Law No. 94?

Answer: Yes. This should all be adjusted, some way or other, to avoid shady science practices, which occur all too often.

Vladimir Putin: Know what we need? Here we are drawing up amendments, and some people even think we should make up laws from scratch. Come up with your proposals! They have been formulated already in some spheres – let’s say, the arts. Contests are inappropriate sometimes, for example, when another country or a Russian region requires a particular Russian company for guest performances. How should we hold a tender for this tour? We could also establish standards on which bidders should be admitted to competitions. The way we interpret the law, it means to reduce the proposed cost of the work. However, nothing should be reduced to absurdity. We should analyse the admission requirements, and use other approaches to keep false corporations out to resell their goods from the tenders.

Remark: Yes, really.

Vladimir Putin: Make your proposals and forward them to the Ministry of Economic Development.

Remark: Okay.

Vladimir Putin:  I will monitor the effort so it won’t get lost in the process.

Remark: Fine, thank you.

Vladimir Putin: You’re welcome. Another question?

Remark: Students should be asking the following question, so I ask it on their behalf: the number of student appointments to archaeological expeditions is being cut. More than that, expedition funding envisages 50 roubles a day per student for catering. Fifty roubles might sound nice, but how long will a student last on that?

Vladimir Putin: Fifty roubles a day?

Answer: Yes.

Vladimir Putin: So you don’t think it’s enough?

Answer: It’s a miserly sum.

Vladimir Putin: How much would suffice?

Answer: I’m not sure. I wanted to say at least 60 but stopped myself.

Vladimir Putin: Will 300 roubles for each suffice?

Answer: That would be wonderful.

Vladimir Putin: Let’s discuss it. Who pays for a student’s provisions?

Answer: Their universities.

Vladimir Putin: The universities themselves?

Answer: Yes. A student team comes from a university and receives 50 roubles per person a day for food. It’s ridiculous! Naturally, the expedition makes additional contributions whenever it can afford them. That’s what we do. We are doing rather well thanks to Mr Deripaska, but not all research crews are so well-off. They live from hand to mouth.

Vladimir Putin: Let us see who might help to address this problem. You have just said: “Our team can afford.” This means that additional money (not big sums, sure) can be a targeted transfer from, say, the Academy of Sciences or universities. We’ll think about it. I am making a note. We will certainly think about that.

Any more questions? Speak up please.

Question: Do you think it’s possible to involve school students in archaeological excavations so they can learn the basics of the profession? Does this idea have any merit?

Vladimir Putin: I like it. Senior schoolchildren can take part. But universities should arrange it together with schoolteachers and the children’s parents. After all, they are just children while you all are adults. I think it’s quite possible provided their work is properly organised and their health is not endangered.

Remark: Such things are done in the Voronezh Region, where there is a rapidly developing children’s archaeological movement named Back to the Sources. I took part in it. From the seventh form on, I went on expeditions and took part in excavations. Many of these young people go on to universities to study history and then become researchers.

Vladimir Putin: When I was at school, I went as far as the Nikolayev Region to pick grapes. My whole class went, and we worked all right. As for archaeological excavations, that’s a noble job. The main thing is not to mis-organise it.

Thank you. Or are there more questions?

Question: I am a volunteer team organiser. Do you think it’s worthwhile to establish a separate volunteer programme to attract young people to archaeology – I mean people who are eager to take it up but their trade or profession has nothing in common with it?

Vladimir Putin: The volunteer movement is for the enthusiasts of a cause that brings them together. Let say, Olympic fans promote the Olympic cause. Some people help persons with limited abilities or seniors because they have the heart to do it. The fields where volunteers work are innumerable. Archaeology and history might become another such field. Again, in my mind, what matters most is the realisation of our roots, the awareness of our identity. When we have this awareness, it is easier to get our bearings today and acquire a vision for the future. That really matters, and the volunteer movement in this sphere is extremely welcome.

Thank you very much. I wish you every success.